Personal anecdote on the curse of dimensionality: there were many tweets/substacks back in 2020-2022 with diagrams of biochemical pathways where every protein or molecule had arrows pointing to lots of other proteins, concluding: "Oh my God! That's how SARS Cov 2 causes amyloid plaques! (insert disease here)". Initially I thought I needed to study biochemistry in order to understand these arguments. Then I concluded that they are all nonsense. Just So stories. Exactly like my old field -- magnetically-confined plasmas for controlled fusion. (In fact, plasma physicists can boast of 70 years -- not a mere 20 -- of irreproducible/useless results.) Every ion/electron in a plasma interacts with a billion nearest neighbours -- analogous to the curse of dimensionality. By induction, I would argue that virtually nothing in biology/epidemiology/virology is truly "understood"; only that certain observations can be made, which may or may not allow one to make useful predictions. As for commercial R&D, let's forget the "R" and focus on the "D".
A very thought provoking article, thank you. The insights from the Denis Noble interview are very interesting.
Hubris seems to be a big problem in the genomics field of science (?). Perhaps if CRISPR can ever realise its dream, the hubris gene could the first target to be edited out of future generations to ensure a better world.
A very good article. I am enjoying the new book. I live in west Michigan and we had a slightly different respiratory illness go through here from middle of November 2019 to middle of January 2020.I know 4 people who contracted it. They got sick, but the doctors gave antibiotics, prednisone, and the one person with bad cytokine storm added anti histamines and they all were fine. The interesting thing is that no one mentioned these illnesses to me until the covid launch in March, that is when they mentioned the strange cold. When these people tried to get testing to see if they had antibodies to 'covid 19',they were treated like the same pieces of garbage that didn't want to take the perfectly safe vaccine that wasn't available yet. Doctors who were fine with giving a person medicine 2 months prior suddenly acted as if everything other than a new injection is the same as putting leaches on someone to suck the bad spirits out. I have always felt that it was a pandemic of testing and that it was important to avoid injections and pcr tests. The fact that constant pcr testing was used as a punishment for people not taking the shot is all the proof I needed, oh and the development of the test in a matter of days also gave pause. I hope we can get to a point of rejecting this model of injecting disease combined with toxins to prevent obscure diseases that can now be treated. I figured out how to not get respiratory illness and I'm sick of having the flu shot that has never worked being forced on me. If someone rejects the flu or covid shot they are treated like a 3 year old or an idiot who denies science. 'It's a flu shot. I'm asking you to drink this tiny glass of water to protect Grandma. How selfish are you? 'A belief in the ability to tune the immune system to meet new challenges is treated like an antiquated religious conviction. Apart from vaccines, there there needs to be a push to limit the amount of injections given. There is almost always a different delivery method. People have been conditioned to think of the injection as the highest art form in medicine instead of seeing it as a danger to avoid.
thanks Dag; those of us still struggling to make sense of the madness of the last 4 yrs remember things like you say
"we had a slightly different respiratory illness go through here from middle of November 2019 to middle of January 2020"
friends way down in NZ; (who were having a wonderfully sunny there in early 2020); made the same comment; there seemed a virulent thing circulating; when it should be a winter bug;
I make this comment because we all still muse: was the whole thing iatrogenic smoke and mirrors? or was something released; was it sprayed from planes; was it replication competent;
Here in Scotland my family all came down with that mystery bug in Dec 2019 - following an Xmas visit by a US citizen who works in a US army garrison town. The US suppressed the fact that many of their athletes in the Wuhan Military Games came down with a mystery illness in Fall, 2019. Might be a coincidence, of course ... but there was no evidence of a spike in hospitalisations, and none of us needed any medical help.
Great article, bravo. I can see from many of the comments that a certain group of folks cannot or will not understand the important points you make. Why is it so hard for so many to understand the difficulty of anything leaping from a lab concoction to a viable spreading real-world entity? To accept that natural selection is a tough mother and whatever may be endemic out there has survived and been honed by countless battles with it? Clearly, dimensionality is beyond their understanding or they are incentivized to ignore it.
Nov 17·edited Nov 17Liked by Martin Neil, Jonathan Engler
I enjoyed this essay very much. I was not convinced by the bat-origin story at all (mainly because I am a former expedition cave explorer in much of the world including the Far East, and none of my mates ever came down with this disease, ever) .
The lab-origin GoF seemed more likely. Hits all of my 'Frankenstein - Mad Scientists' buttons. But we were never presented with the third option - that the virus is endemic and the reason why the virus originated in Wuhan was not because it came from there - it was simply that it was one of the few labs on the planet with the ability to detect it.
Whatever 'it' is.
Next - is or was there a deadly Pandemic caused by this virus? Well, certainly not here in my part of Scotland - all cause deaths were pretty normal, really, considering how aged many of us are becoming.
And the definition of a Covid death was always rather absurd and unprovable.
So, moving on - do viruses exist, and are they potentially harmful?
I honestly am still rather unsure about that, it is out of my PayScale, but we do know that a severely malnourished population appears to succumb to such diseases as Smallpox, Whooping cough, Scarlet Fever, Typhus, Malaria, Leprosy, Rabies, Measles, etc etc, and these do share notable and unique characteristics, so my informed layman's opinion is that yes, viruses, probably in combination with bacteria and fungi, can kill older or frailer people. Its also clear that they are all fairly low risk compared with, say, falls, cancer, dementia or strokes. and we can't do much about the fact that old people will all die of something in due course.
Was there a Pandemic? I saw no personal evidence of one at all. Could there be a future one? I guess its possible, but unlikely.
Do vaccines help protect us? I have no idea, but I think its worth carrying out some proper cost/benefit studies of them - after all, what's the point of some older person like me ducking (say) pneumonia if I just die of dementia instead?
" Indeed, we suspect he would agree that most GoF is functionally and financially useless (but maybe has great utility as a generator of revenue and an instrument of propaganda)."
thank you for this succinct summary; whilst we are still allowed by our ruling authorities to continue to read and think, we search; seems to me there is the Sasha Latypova camp: that you cannot make the thing that was said to have spread amongst us; was it all a big scam; was all Baric's work, over all those years, just smoke and mirrors; your comment seems to align there; the Baileys also repeatedly discuss the V word; and I find their careful analysis of the original papers very careful and detailed; where authors claimed to have "discovered" these mythical things; a careful analysis from the Baileys leaves one wondering about the "truth" one was previously told; have we yet again had the wool pulled over our eyes?
I have watched videos of Eric Weinstein talk of modern physics; of string theory; suggesting I understand physics has spent 40 yrs treading water; (whilst presumably gaining cash for "research:): is this all a similar phenomenon?
I remember the words of the Who; (the rock band!!) "we won't get fooled again" but boy, do they keep endlessly trying it on .
She is forthright: " Spike protein is claimed as part of the “corona” of the theoretical entity called SARS-cov-2. It is claimed that the spike protein of the original “Wuhan variant” of covid looks like this:"
"This structure is not real. It is a modeled, averaged, idealized computer model. Protein folding is a hugely complex unsolved problem in biology.
There is not enough computing power in the universe to solve it so that the protein structures could be accurately predicted, and no, AI is not going to solve it either.
That’s another fundamental reason why it is impossible to build pandemic-causing viruses in labs, but it’s a separate topic I will try to address at a later date."
" They can’t precisely PCR these things because PCR is a 200 chemicals/50 steps/no validation cooking exercise + a computer modeling technique, with internal circular referencing and much manual manipulations - i.e. a great method to commit science fraud."
"The vial testing all over the world has found that the mRNA (when it is found), comes in random length strands, majority are broken, and the most prevalent are micro-RNA and smaller strands, which are crude explosive devices - I made an analogy with shrapnel or crude pressure cooker bombs. In addition to the broken RNA, there is a multitude of other poisoning components: DNA plasmids, random proteins, toxic chemicals and metals."
A good Sunday morning read, thank you. I watched the Denis Noble interview; he should write a popular book, maybe call it The Agentic System, which will capture the imagination of young people everywhere and form better worldviews than Richard Dawkins formed with The Selfish Gene.
I also read Alfred Wallace's tract. Wow. The authorities hammered out a script for their drama in the 19th century and it is in use today. But, "[until] the records in our hospitals, 'vaccinated' and 'unvaccinated', are strictly correct, and properly classified, it can be demonstrated that true results cannot be deduced from them."
"Given the almost complete lack of interest and support from within the medical freedom movement, one might be tempted to dismiss us as lone, fringe voices in the origins debate"
I think it's more to do with the fact you never address any rebuttals or points raised by those critical of your viewpoints. It's no good trying to plead 'special case' if you're not willing to put in the work to actually defend your points. This smells like trying to plead victimhood to compensate for a lack of actual responses to rebuttals.
A rebuttal - a two-parter set of comments, no less - was raised by myself in the comment section of your prior article on this topic. No meaningful response to it has been generated by yourselves.
"Despite what our intellectual opponents might say, we are not alone in our beliefs. "
Nobody is saying this, and even if you had popularity, this still isn't evidence of your beliefs either.
"Just who are these ‘more credible’ people"
Ah yes, the classic 'trust the experts' line when the inability to address evidence emerges.
"Much of what Noble says here answers our question as to whether it is possible to reliably engineer lethal viruses."
You mean to the point that the scientific community could have a classification system for biolab security (BSL) and that a large number of countries have bioweapons facilities? And you haven't defined "engineering" in this context; are you basically denying the existence of lethal virus? If someone slightly alters a pre-existing lethal virus, are you saying that engineered lethal virus cannot exist? Isn't possible? Can't be done?
One wonders what the ton of work Ralph Baric and WIV must be doing! Oh wait, it isn't a mystery, they were messing about with chimeric SARS viruses. You know, the same virus that previously caused an outbreak.
" huge number of combinations of values"
Appeal to obscurity/appeal to complexity. Just because something is complex does not make it impossible. This would be like someone from the 1800s trying to argue stealth fighter jets can't be possible because the engineering required to build one is insanely complex.
We have genetic analysis tools and a large chunk of genetic identification research has been done since the early 2000s. In-fact, viruses are arguably one of the *simpliest* genetic elements one could study. We already have GMO crops and GMO animals, but you're trying to argue a GMO virus isn't possible? What?
"There is no good evidence that the many and complex hurdles in front of deliberately engineering viruses to become more pathogenic or transmissible in humans have been overcome."
Oh, well we better fold down all those BSL-4 labs that are engineering and handling "nothing" because one person who does, and I quote (for systems biology) "computational and mathematical analysis and modeling of complex biological systems". Never have computation models on viral spread ever been wrong! Neil Ferguson can testify! Close all the BSL-3 and BSL-4 labs and allow all the bioweapons, I mean non-existent complex pathogenic material, to be accessible to the public.
Non-existence proof. It's never happened, including with SARS-CoV-2.
GoF research has long been connected to vaccine development. In contrast to what some have alleged, whether the experiments can or do result in a viable “deadlier” pathogen is irrelevant to the question of whether the experiments are being conducted.
There is no evidence that Gain of Function research can or has resulted in the “leak” of a transmissible pathogen capable of creating widespread illness or death, let alone outbreaks and mass casualty events in geographically disparate locations around the globe in short and/or successive order.
you sound very angry Mr Beagle; sorry to hear that; so much is hidden from us these days, that sadly speculation and discussion tends to fill this void; you are welcome to scold us for this.
"And you haven't defined "engineering" in this context; are you basically denying the existence of lethal virus? If someone slightly alters a pre-existing lethal virus, are you saying that engineered lethal virus cannot exist? Isn't possible? Can't be done?"
You will be shocked to hear Mr Beagle that some do doubt the existence; it has become a sort of religious debate; heretics are those who doubt the official word of the experts; they will be cast forth; verily, verily, they will be punished for being unbelievers.
" If someone slightly alters a pre-existing lethal virus"; this type of concept is advanced, with great confidence; but we were told so many effortless porkies during the last few years; many have taken to expressing doubt; "slightly alters a pre-existing lethal virus": to embrace that concept requires vast amounts of faith; doubtless you indeed have that; that's great;
"One wonders what the ton of work Ralph Baric and WIV must be doing!" I think you are saying; was it all just smoke and mirrors; all just a con; well; it is hard to know these days; folks talk of "string theory" research in physics; 40 years spent (waste?) on this; sadly not all of us share your certainty; we are pleased it is all so clear for you
I confess I have listened to Denis Boyle on various videos recently; he seems a bright man; I feel I have to reflect on what he says; Seamus O'Mahoney commented identically in his book "Can Medicine be cured" on how the human genome project had promised so much; and delivered so little; but we are often not allowed to talk about these things these days; hush!!
" You know, the same virus that previously caused an outbreak." ..... well, you know; that was the line we were spun; a strange "virus" surely: someone could be perfectly well; no complaints; yet be "carrying" a "deadly virus" in some mysterious way, that would jump off them; (they being completely well); and immediately "land" on some poor unsuspecting soul; and immediately they would become really sick and die quickly? Really? How do we distinguish fairy stories from urban myths?
Please keep debating with us; only by talking to each other can we learn and swap ideas; (because those behind the curtains are not going to tell us what they are up to).
OK, but just because something is theoretically possible also doesn't mean that it has been necessarily been achieved. What other "lab leaks" in the history of the world have ever created a "global pandemic"?
I really like this article and it provides food for thought.
One question for me that comes out of this article is the GOF research. Sunetra Gupta states it will improve our knowledge. It probably will, but do we want/need that knowledge? Will it benefit mankind?
Lab leaks or Zoonotic transmission , like the Germ theory of disease , have as much credibility as unicorns and tooth fairies. These ‘dissenters’ are just rowing the virology bullshit boat down a side stream!!
things that are described by the V word; well, there things are a mite more tricky; surely we can say they can't be grown; some say they can't be seen; and to believe in them, requires strong beliefs;
and yes, it seems bad things were being done on Plum Island; to the early detriment of those living in Lyme, or Old Lyme. borrelia is a spirochaete; a very pleiomorphic thing.
One of your experts (a woman, actually) says “Nature can generate novel viruses that pose a threat to humanity, but man cannot”. That is a foolish thing to say. She means that at present she doesn’t think it can easily be done. Her main conclusions seem sound to me. But she should not make categorical statements like that, it discredits her story.
But what about the 4th theory - that it was a deliberate dispersion of a lab derived virus that was covered up by the lab leak v wet market narrative? Why don't you consider this? To my way of thinking it is a glaring omission to the theory you put forward and that's perhaps why it's not been seen worthy of debate? There are plenty of front line doctors that say they experienced a clinical picture of viral/bacterial infection in 2020 that was unlike anything they had seen before. Plenty of people that experienced this too. Either you have to theorise that all these individuals were deluded in some way - or there really was a novel virus, which then fits with the millions of not billions of independent sequencing reads, and all the published evidence of gain and loss of function experimentation with viruses and genetic elements over decades. There was also a powerful element of propaganda and false positive driven hysteria - absolutely. But to have pulled this off without a real virus in circulation - still in circulation albeit in a much attenuated form, is very unlikely IMHO. But thanks for raising the debate. It's important to have 👏
You need to read our book to get answers on those questions, especially given we found spikeopathy from natural infection isnt supportable and neither are supposedly novel symptoms. We can't cover everything in a single article.
I believe I suffered spikeopathy (presuming I correctly take your meaning for that term), yet got no covid jabs, but at least 3 infections. While ivermectin would put it into remission, it took eating pineapple to clear it. (So far, anyhow.)
One issue with this theory is if creating a pandemic through GOF research were so easy, why wouldn't well-meaning population control billionaires have already unleashed several rounds?
And why would they have first unleashed one for which the average age of mortality exceeded the average age of the population?
Omicron has always been suspect and awfully strange had it not been lab manipulated from an earlier strain, then released or escaped. Haven't been following Martin's thread on this thinking, so not sure if they are also saying sequencing was false.
Sequencing used in the way discussed here is definitely false.
The sequences are placed in the sample while purporting to amplify with PCR the assumed common elements of a previously claimed “virus”.
Assembling from a small fraction of the contigs a “new virus”, especially one related to one already claimed, is only done by the bioinformatics algorithms if it’s first offered as a template that earlier sequence.
The bioinformatics people are exclusively computer people, not biologists. Biologists do not go on to become bioinformaticians.
The Wuhan virus is a run-off-the-mill common-cold virus. Please check the epidemics on the Diamond Princess cruise ship, the US aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt, and the French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle. Why would sinister people release a virus that no one cared about?
Conflationary. (Are you with the Federal Reserve or the Department of Commerce?) Common-cold virus ordinarily means human rhinovirus. This was a coronavirus. Albeit, they allegedly cause 10-20% of what are called "colds". It also wasn't influenza virus, as it was absolutely immune to amantadine.
Personal anecdote on the curse of dimensionality: there were many tweets/substacks back in 2020-2022 with diagrams of biochemical pathways where every protein or molecule had arrows pointing to lots of other proteins, concluding: "Oh my God! That's how SARS Cov 2 causes amyloid plaques! (insert disease here)". Initially I thought I needed to study biochemistry in order to understand these arguments. Then I concluded that they are all nonsense. Just So stories. Exactly like my old field -- magnetically-confined plasmas for controlled fusion. (In fact, plasma physicists can boast of 70 years -- not a mere 20 -- of irreproducible/useless results.) Every ion/electron in a plasma interacts with a billion nearest neighbours -- analogous to the curse of dimensionality. By induction, I would argue that virtually nothing in biology/epidemiology/virology is truly "understood"; only that certain observations can be made, which may or may not allow one to make useful predictions. As for commercial R&D, let's forget the "R" and focus on the "D".
Very interesting comment. Thanks.
" (In fact, plasma physicists can boast of 70 years -- not a mere 20 -- of irreproducible/useless results.)"
thanks Pere; I made a comment on Eric Weinstein, who seems to be on a similar track; all best wishes
A very thought provoking article, thank you. The insights from the Denis Noble interview are very interesting.
Hubris seems to be a big problem in the genomics field of science (?). Perhaps if CRISPR can ever realise its dream, the hubris gene could the first target to be edited out of future generations to ensure a better world.
My sincere praise to all three of You for your continued perseverance.
A very good article. I am enjoying the new book. I live in west Michigan and we had a slightly different respiratory illness go through here from middle of November 2019 to middle of January 2020.I know 4 people who contracted it. They got sick, but the doctors gave antibiotics, prednisone, and the one person with bad cytokine storm added anti histamines and they all were fine. The interesting thing is that no one mentioned these illnesses to me until the covid launch in March, that is when they mentioned the strange cold. When these people tried to get testing to see if they had antibodies to 'covid 19',they were treated like the same pieces of garbage that didn't want to take the perfectly safe vaccine that wasn't available yet. Doctors who were fine with giving a person medicine 2 months prior suddenly acted as if everything other than a new injection is the same as putting leaches on someone to suck the bad spirits out. I have always felt that it was a pandemic of testing and that it was important to avoid injections and pcr tests. The fact that constant pcr testing was used as a punishment for people not taking the shot is all the proof I needed, oh and the development of the test in a matter of days also gave pause. I hope we can get to a point of rejecting this model of injecting disease combined with toxins to prevent obscure diseases that can now be treated. I figured out how to not get respiratory illness and I'm sick of having the flu shot that has never worked being forced on me. If someone rejects the flu or covid shot they are treated like a 3 year old or an idiot who denies science. 'It's a flu shot. I'm asking you to drink this tiny glass of water to protect Grandma. How selfish are you? 'A belief in the ability to tune the immune system to meet new challenges is treated like an antiquated religious conviction. Apart from vaccines, there there needs to be a push to limit the amount of injections given. There is almost always a different delivery method. People have been conditioned to think of the injection as the highest art form in medicine instead of seeing it as a danger to avoid.
" People have been conditioned to think of the injection as the highest art form in medicine instead of seeing it as a danger to avoid."
so well said
thanks Dag; those of us still struggling to make sense of the madness of the last 4 yrs remember things like you say
"we had a slightly different respiratory illness go through here from middle of November 2019 to middle of January 2020"
friends way down in NZ; (who were having a wonderfully sunny there in early 2020); made the same comment; there seemed a virulent thing circulating; when it should be a winter bug;
I make this comment because we all still muse: was the whole thing iatrogenic smoke and mirrors? or was something released; was it sprayed from planes; was it replication competent;
I'm not ruling 5G towers out of the equation, are you?
No it was not sprayed from planes: stop being silly!
dead right Rob; never been done before https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea-Spray
Way back in the cold-war days, 50 or more years ago, some tests were done - and they broadly failed. So what?
Here in Scotland my family all came down with that mystery bug in Dec 2019 - following an Xmas visit by a US citizen who works in a US army garrison town. The US suppressed the fact that many of their athletes in the Wuhan Military Games came down with a mystery illness in Fall, 2019. Might be a coincidence, of course ... but there was no evidence of a spike in hospitalisations, and none of us needed any medical help.
Great article, bravo. I can see from many of the comments that a certain group of folks cannot or will not understand the important points you make. Why is it so hard for so many to understand the difficulty of anything leaping from a lab concoction to a viable spreading real-world entity? To accept that natural selection is a tough mother and whatever may be endemic out there has survived and been honed by countless battles with it? Clearly, dimensionality is beyond their understanding or they are incentivized to ignore it.
I understand from Christine Masseys research, covid “virus” has never been isolated by anyone any where.
Need a better jail. "Isolate" is poorly (if at all) and disparately defined.
I wholly support your thesis, and will spread the word.
I enjoyed this essay very much. I was not convinced by the bat-origin story at all (mainly because I am a former expedition cave explorer in much of the world including the Far East, and none of my mates ever came down with this disease, ever) .
The lab-origin GoF seemed more likely. Hits all of my 'Frankenstein - Mad Scientists' buttons. But we were never presented with the third option - that the virus is endemic and the reason why the virus originated in Wuhan was not because it came from there - it was simply that it was one of the few labs on the planet with the ability to detect it.
Whatever 'it' is.
Next - is or was there a deadly Pandemic caused by this virus? Well, certainly not here in my part of Scotland - all cause deaths were pretty normal, really, considering how aged many of us are becoming.
And the definition of a Covid death was always rather absurd and unprovable.
So, moving on - do viruses exist, and are they potentially harmful?
I honestly am still rather unsure about that, it is out of my PayScale, but we do know that a severely malnourished population appears to succumb to such diseases as Smallpox, Whooping cough, Scarlet Fever, Typhus, Malaria, Leprosy, Rabies, Measles, etc etc, and these do share notable and unique characteristics, so my informed layman's opinion is that yes, viruses, probably in combination with bacteria and fungi, can kill older or frailer people. Its also clear that they are all fairly low risk compared with, say, falls, cancer, dementia or strokes. and we can't do much about the fact that old people will all die of something in due course.
Was there a Pandemic? I saw no personal evidence of one at all. Could there be a future one? I guess its possible, but unlikely.
Do vaccines help protect us? I have no idea, but I think its worth carrying out some proper cost/benefit studies of them - after all, what's the point of some older person like me ducking (say) pneumonia if I just die of dementia instead?
The fourth option rarely gets a look in, though it’s almost certainly the correct one.
Nothing happened at all.
It was wholly planned to be this way.
A faked pandemic by means of lying and misuse of the PCR technique.
Fear used to disrupt society and ultimately to intentionally harm the population with deliberately harmful injections.
Rinse and repeat, potentially with multiple crises, Schwab’s “pilycrisis”, to usher in The Great Reset, which made no appearance in this discussion.
" Indeed, we suspect he would agree that most GoF is functionally and financially useless (but maybe has great utility as a generator of revenue and an instrument of propaganda)."
thank you for this succinct summary; whilst we are still allowed by our ruling authorities to continue to read and think, we search; seems to me there is the Sasha Latypova camp: that you cannot make the thing that was said to have spread amongst us; was it all a big scam; was all Baric's work, over all those years, just smoke and mirrors; your comment seems to align there; the Baileys also repeatedly discuss the V word; and I find their careful analysis of the original papers very careful and detailed; where authors claimed to have "discovered" these mythical things; a careful analysis from the Baileys leaves one wondering about the "truth" one was previously told; have we yet again had the wool pulled over our eyes?
I have watched videos of Eric Weinstein talk of modern physics; of string theory; suggesting I understand physics has spent 40 yrs treading water; (whilst presumably gaining cash for "research:): is this all a similar phenomenon?
I remember the words of the Who; (the rock band!!) "we won't get fooled again" but boy, do they keep endlessly trying it on .
perhaps if I expand on what Sasha says; here; https://sashalatypova.substack.com/p/does-spike-protein-exist-part-1
She is forthright: " Spike protein is claimed as part of the “corona” of the theoretical entity called SARS-cov-2. It is claimed that the spike protein of the original “Wuhan variant” of covid looks like this:"
"This structure is not real. It is a modeled, averaged, idealized computer model. Protein folding is a hugely complex unsolved problem in biology.
There is not enough computing power in the universe to solve it so that the protein structures could be accurately predicted, and no, AI is not going to solve it either.
That’s another fundamental reason why it is impossible to build pandemic-causing viruses in labs, but it’s a separate topic I will try to address at a later date."
" They can’t precisely PCR these things because PCR is a 200 chemicals/50 steps/no validation cooking exercise + a computer modeling technique, with internal circular referencing and much manual manipulations - i.e. a great method to commit science fraud."
"The vial testing all over the world has found that the mRNA (when it is found), comes in random length strands, majority are broken, and the most prevalent are micro-RNA and smaller strands, which are crude explosive devices - I made an analogy with shrapnel or crude pressure cooker bombs. In addition to the broken RNA, there is a multitude of other poisoning components: DNA plasmids, random proteins, toxic chemicals and metals."
The best they can do is 'bat soup'.
A good Sunday morning read, thank you. I watched the Denis Noble interview; he should write a popular book, maybe call it The Agentic System, which will capture the imagination of young people everywhere and form better worldviews than Richard Dawkins formed with The Selfish Gene.
I also read Alfred Wallace's tract. Wow. The authorities hammered out a script for their drama in the 19th century and it is in use today. But, "[until] the records in our hospitals, 'vaccinated' and 'unvaccinated', are strictly correct, and properly classified, it can be demonstrated that true results cannot be deduced from them."
Prof Gupta is saying they didn’t chart sudden spread in Wuhan.
This is point, one way or other, completely destroys the scary global pandemic myth.
No sudden spread charted in Wuhan equals no sudden spread charted anywhere in the world, completely at odds with the timeline of Covid narrative.
"Given the almost complete lack of interest and support from within the medical freedom movement, one might be tempted to dismiss us as lone, fringe voices in the origins debate"
I think it's more to do with the fact you never address any rebuttals or points raised by those critical of your viewpoints. It's no good trying to plead 'special case' if you're not willing to put in the work to actually defend your points. This smells like trying to plead victimhood to compensate for a lack of actual responses to rebuttals.
A rebuttal - a two-parter set of comments, no less - was raised by myself in the comment section of your prior article on this topic. No meaningful response to it has been generated by yourselves.
"Despite what our intellectual opponents might say, we are not alone in our beliefs. "
Nobody is saying this, and even if you had popularity, this still isn't evidence of your beliefs either.
"Just who are these ‘more credible’ people"
Ah yes, the classic 'trust the experts' line when the inability to address evidence emerges.
"Much of what Noble says here answers our question as to whether it is possible to reliably engineer lethal viruses."
You mean to the point that the scientific community could have a classification system for biolab security (BSL) and that a large number of countries have bioweapons facilities? And you haven't defined "engineering" in this context; are you basically denying the existence of lethal virus? If someone slightly alters a pre-existing lethal virus, are you saying that engineered lethal virus cannot exist? Isn't possible? Can't be done?
One wonders what the ton of work Ralph Baric and WIV must be doing! Oh wait, it isn't a mystery, they were messing about with chimeric SARS viruses. You know, the same virus that previously caused an outbreak.
" huge number of combinations of values"
Appeal to obscurity/appeal to complexity. Just because something is complex does not make it impossible. This would be like someone from the 1800s trying to argue stealth fighter jets can't be possible because the engineering required to build one is insanely complex.
We have genetic analysis tools and a large chunk of genetic identification research has been done since the early 2000s. In-fact, viruses are arguably one of the *simpliest* genetic elements one could study. We already have GMO crops and GMO animals, but you're trying to argue a GMO virus isn't possible? What?
"There is no good evidence that the many and complex hurdles in front of deliberately engineering viruses to become more pathogenic or transmissible in humans have been overcome."
Oh, well we better fold down all those BSL-4 labs that are engineering and handling "nothing" because one person who does, and I quote (for systems biology) "computational and mathematical analysis and modeling of complex biological systems". Never have computation models on viral spread ever been wrong! Neil Ferguson can testify! Close all the BSL-3 and BSL-4 labs and allow all the bioweapons, I mean non-existent complex pathogenic material, to be accessible to the public.
We have called for a debate and are trying to arrange something but I'm personally not going to debate everyone and anyone, sorry.
Non-existence proof. It's never happened, including with SARS-CoV-2.
GoF research has long been connected to vaccine development. In contrast to what some have alleged, whether the experiments can or do result in a viable “deadlier” pathogen is irrelevant to the question of whether the experiments are being conducted.
There is no evidence that Gain of Function research can or has resulted in the “leak” of a transmissible pathogen capable of creating widespread illness or death, let alone outbreaks and mass casualty events in geographically disparate locations around the globe in short and/or successive order.
you sound very angry Mr Beagle; sorry to hear that; so much is hidden from us these days, that sadly speculation and discussion tends to fill this void; you are welcome to scold us for this.
"And you haven't defined "engineering" in this context; are you basically denying the existence of lethal virus? If someone slightly alters a pre-existing lethal virus, are you saying that engineered lethal virus cannot exist? Isn't possible? Can't be done?"
You will be shocked to hear Mr Beagle that some do doubt the existence; it has become a sort of religious debate; heretics are those who doubt the official word of the experts; they will be cast forth; verily, verily, they will be punished for being unbelievers.
" If someone slightly alters a pre-existing lethal virus"; this type of concept is advanced, with great confidence; but we were told so many effortless porkies during the last few years; many have taken to expressing doubt; "slightly alters a pre-existing lethal virus": to embrace that concept requires vast amounts of faith; doubtless you indeed have that; that's great;
"One wonders what the ton of work Ralph Baric and WIV must be doing!" I think you are saying; was it all just smoke and mirrors; all just a con; well; it is hard to know these days; folks talk of "string theory" research in physics; 40 years spent (waste?) on this; sadly not all of us share your certainty; we are pleased it is all so clear for you
I confess I have listened to Denis Boyle on various videos recently; he seems a bright man; I feel I have to reflect on what he says; Seamus O'Mahoney commented identically in his book "Can Medicine be cured" on how the human genome project had promised so much; and delivered so little; but we are often not allowed to talk about these things these days; hush!!
" You know, the same virus that previously caused an outbreak." ..... well, you know; that was the line we were spun; a strange "virus" surely: someone could be perfectly well; no complaints; yet be "carrying" a "deadly virus" in some mysterious way, that would jump off them; (they being completely well); and immediately "land" on some poor unsuspecting soul; and immediately they would become really sick and die quickly? Really? How do we distinguish fairy stories from urban myths?
Please keep debating with us; only by talking to each other can we learn and swap ideas; (because those behind the curtains are not going to tell us what they are up to).
OK, but just because something is theoretically possible also doesn't mean that it has been necessarily been achieved. What other "lab leaks" in the history of the world have ever created a "global pandemic"?
I really like this article and it provides food for thought.
One question for me that comes out of this article is the GOF research. Sunetra Gupta states it will improve our knowledge. It probably will, but do we want/need that knowledge? Will it benefit mankind?
Is progress always a good thing?
Am I being an anti-scientist?
Yeah, I don't particularly appreciate Gupta's nonchalant attitude about Frankenvirus creation.
That we haven't figured out how to kill ourselves yet doesn't mean that we won't stumble our way to "success" if we just keep trying our best.
Lab leaks or Zoonotic transmission , like the Germ theory of disease , have as much credibility as unicorns and tooth fairies. These ‘dissenters’ are just rowing the virology bullshit boat down a side stream!!
Boo! I had Lyme disease; a very notorious example of a lab leak, though not involving a virus.
"I had Lyme disease"; indeed; sorry to hear that; thing is; you can see Borrelia burgdorferi; you can grow it; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC88230/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK532894/
things that are described by the V word; well, there things are a mite more tricky; surely we can say they can't be grown; some say they can't be seen; and to believe in them, requires strong beliefs;
and yes, it seems bad things were being done on Plum Island; to the early detriment of those living in Lyme, or Old Lyme. borrelia is a spirochaete; a very pleiomorphic thing.
You should have stuck to lemons ;-)
One of your experts (a woman, actually) says “Nature can generate novel viruses that pose a threat to humanity, but man cannot”. That is a foolish thing to say. She means that at present she doesn’t think it can easily be done. Her main conclusions seem sound to me. But she should not make categorical statements like that, it discredits her story.
"If at first you don't succeed, ..."
But what about the 4th theory - that it was a deliberate dispersion of a lab derived virus that was covered up by the lab leak v wet market narrative? Why don't you consider this? To my way of thinking it is a glaring omission to the theory you put forward and that's perhaps why it's not been seen worthy of debate? There are plenty of front line doctors that say they experienced a clinical picture of viral/bacterial infection in 2020 that was unlike anything they had seen before. Plenty of people that experienced this too. Either you have to theorise that all these individuals were deluded in some way - or there really was a novel virus, which then fits with the millions of not billions of independent sequencing reads, and all the published evidence of gain and loss of function experimentation with viruses and genetic elements over decades. There was also a powerful element of propaganda and false positive driven hysteria - absolutely. But to have pulled this off without a real virus in circulation - still in circulation albeit in a much attenuated form, is very unlikely IMHO. But thanks for raising the debate. It's important to have 👏
You need to read our book to get answers on those questions, especially given we found spikeopathy from natural infection isnt supportable and neither are supposedly novel symptoms. We can't cover everything in a single article.
I believe I suffered spikeopathy (presuming I correctly take your meaning for that term), yet got no covid jabs, but at least 3 infections. While ivermectin would put it into remission, it took eating pineapple to clear it. (So far, anyhow.)
One issue with this theory is if creating a pandemic through GOF research were so easy, why wouldn't well-meaning population control billionaires have already unleashed several rounds?
And why would they have first unleashed one for which the average age of mortality exceeded the average age of the population?
"And why would they have first unleashed one for which the average age of mortality exceeded the average age of the population?"
just unbelievably cunning folks!! Their cunning is beyond our mortal contemplation;
On the level of Dr Evil; he, he, he ..........
Omicron has always been suspect and awfully strange had it not been lab manipulated from an earlier strain, then released or escaped. Haven't been following Martin's thread on this thinking, so not sure if they are also saying sequencing was false.
Sequencing used in the way discussed here is definitely false.
The sequences are placed in the sample while purporting to amplify with PCR the assumed common elements of a previously claimed “virus”.
Assembling from a small fraction of the contigs a “new virus”, especially one related to one already claimed, is only done by the bioinformatics algorithms if it’s first offered as a template that earlier sequence.
The bioinformatics people are exclusively computer people, not biologists. Biologists do not go on to become bioinformaticians.
The Wuhan virus is a run-off-the-mill common-cold virus. Please check the epidemics on the Diamond Princess cruise ship, the US aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt, and the French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle. Why would sinister people release a virus that no one cared about?
Conflationary. (Are you with the Federal Reserve or the Department of Commerce?) Common-cold virus ordinarily means human rhinovirus. This was a coronavirus. Albeit, they allegedly cause 10-20% of what are called "colds". It also wasn't influenza virus, as it was absolutely immune to amantadine.